Saturday, May 31, 2008

30/05/08 Time: Late


No castings again today, really boring again.

I went out for lunch at 2:30... So apparently people who run pizzerias go out for lunch at lunch time... Nowhere was open... How do you keep a business built around feeding people going if it closes at lunch time?

Today Anton decided it would be better if he booked his own plane ticket to Paris, instead of letting the agency to do it, you know he wanted to save money. So after lots of hard work (lots of stupid questions) and after turning elite down (when they said they would get him a flight), he managed to save 60 Euros... Bbbbbbbuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuttttttttttttttttt... his flight into "Paris" lands 397km away from Paris... That got us laughing pretty hard for a long time, I almost passed out due to lack of oxygen I was laughing so hard. Amount saved booking flight on his own - 60 Euros. Cost of bus to the airport - 7 Euros. Googleing Antons trip distance to paris from the airport- Priceless...

I got a call back for a catalogue casting, on Sunday, hopefully I'll get that and make some more money.

Bed now, Denis has a casting at 7am tomorrow so I got to turn off the laptop.

Thursday, May 29, 2008

My Birthday. 18:40



Today, being my birthday, I turned off my wakeup alarm. When I wake up, 11:00, I check my phone only to find I have a casting at 11:30-17:30. I like to show up early for castings, so I skip the wait, seems if you show up in the first half hour of most morning castings, you can skip the line (meaning you sit around for 5-10 min then your finished, and it means that there is much less chance of them having found the person for the job, or so I hear), being later then I would have liked I pretty much got up and left right away.

When I get off the metro I find I have been called twice by Elite... I got kinda worried thinking I missed something, so I call them back, to then have 3 people yell happy birthday into the phone... So much better then the expected "Where are you?"... That was pretty cool. So then I decided to go get some food instead of hurry to the casting.

The casting was in the basement of the agency, so I went to the agents before I went to the casting. Said chow to all the people up stairs, and tried to go put more money on my phone (randomly texting Maxime seems to cost money... always good to tell him to *in his own words* "gofuckyourself"... oh inside jokes nobody else will get...)

The casting was for Champion Sports ware (I think), I arrived at about 11:50 and sat in the room waiting for close to one and a half hours. When I got in I realized why it took so long. They made me put on there clothes, then do like a video about my self (Hi, I'm Stuart....) then they handed me a basket ball and told me to dribble around bit with it then shoot on the net they had put up... Not so hard, but it took like 15 min just for my casting.

Now I'm going out for pizza at a local place. Should be fun. Hope I don't have to work early tomorrow.

Wednesday, May 28, 2008

18:15

Early start today, had to go for a casting for a campaign. Since I showed up early, the casting was 10:00 - 12:30, there was no wait to get in which is always nice.

On my way home I decided to go get some food for dinner. Standing in like at the super market (at around 11:40) I checked my phone for calls, and had a message. The message said "Prada" then a time. So dropped the food off at home, then headed for the casting.

The casting was for only 6 guys (Me, Denise (roommate), Anton, Maxime, Michael and Diego). When we arrived they led us into a room and left us there for 30min. Eventually someone came, told us to put a jacket on, and walk down the hall, then he took a couple pictures. Simple enough. The fact that they didn't look through a books was kinda odd (as anything big they would normally have done this). After another half hour wait, they came back and said that Maxime and Anton got the job, lame.

As we left we tried to figure out what the job was for, our best guess is for a fitting... meaning the designer was looking for there body shape for a new piece of clothing. Still thats about 90+ Euros an hour, for 4 hours work, not bad.


Another bit of insight into modeling life.

Rejection. It's a big part of modelling, and it gets hard not to take personally. When Anton and Maxime got the job, as Michael and I left Prada it we both kinda felt as if they had stolen the job from us, when in reality we weren't what they were looking for, and even had Anton and Maxime not been there, there is a huge chance neither of us would have gotten the job anyway. It seems a lot of people here hold getting jobs against you, as if you have stolen something from them. Then when you see someone who "stole" a job from you, everyone tends to be really happy for them, extremely two faced.

Tuesday, May 27, 2008

27/05/08 Time? Fuck knows


So today I went for a photo shoot for the Italian Vogue. It was a 5 page section for converse, the shoes that I hate because they tear up my feet. I got kinda lost on the way over and decided to call Elite, because well you know they say "call if you are running late, or lost, any time, I'll help you out", they were on lunch. WTF? Italy goes on lunch for 1.5 hours each day. The shoot started at 13:30, and they went on lunch at 13:00. So what I think they really mean is "Call if you are running late, or lost, anytime, I'll help you out, except if I'm on lunch in which case Fuck right off".
Eventually I find my way to the set (I am getting better at working my way through the city, although the streets are very maze) hardest part, as always, is orientating my self when I get off the Metro (more on it later). I end up in only being about 6-7 min late. On the way into the building I meet the other model Glenn who was from Sidney, as we get close to the building we get pointed through an archway, across a courtyard and around onto this very industrial looking set. As always you first go around saying "Chow" to everyone you're going to work with, and then find a place to sit and wait for hair and makeup. An hour later were ready for wardrobe then makeup. Then a couple quick pictures in the parking lot (nice old car) then off to some random park that had a fenced off basketball court, which is where all the rest of the pictures were taken.
They unloaded all these props from the van and as they were setting up the cameras, we started to sift through the toys. In the mass of things is an old Bianchi folding bike, which they then had Glenn riding, and me standing on the back of while they took pictures. Then we found rollerskates, but without the boot parts, so as Glenn rode the bike I stood on these very sketchy wheels and got dragged around (at which point they told us to stop, they grabbed the cameras, and then started taking pictures of us playing around).
There were 6 models there all together, 4 guys and 2 girls. The wardrobe went, guy + girl dressed in track type clothes (guy in track suit, girl as a kinda cheer leader), then the rest of us were school uniforms. So the dynamics that I eventually worked out (they explained it in Italian, but forgot 2 of us couldn't understand it), it was like a group of kids from school, Glenn and I friends, Glenn had his "Girlfriend", and I had mine. So my girlfriend was trying to teach me Italian when we weren't shooting, but every time she started they would see us then be like "FREEZE DON'T MOVE THATS PERFECT" and then we would have to stop talking while they took pictures, it was funny the first time, but it quickly got annoying.
Eventually if was over (after 7.5 hours in total) and a couple of us went for dinner. Its kinda funny being the only one who doesn't speak Italian, when everyone else kinda speaks English, but not really. The conversations would consist of them speaking Italian, then pause and explain the conversation to me, or they would like look at me to back up an argument. Every once and a while I would figure I was keeping up with the conversation, then they would explain it to me and I would be way off... I do understand when they talk about eating, or me...

Gah, just got home. I HATE taking off makeup... such a pain.

Monday, May 26, 2008

26/05/08 22:56


Oh man, sitting in Maxime's room, listning to Anton (the russian/torontonian crazy guy) trying to explain rap, and how you cant learn from everybody.


Oh man now its getting religious...


"Satan is the body of rebellious" "... humans have a choice in life, the left or the right. The right is the right way..."

Shoot Me
26/05/08 14:16


So only the one casting today, for a showroom again. I went in and it was like a conference room size with rows and rows of clothes on rolling racks everywhere. Eventually I went up to the front, and they asked me put on a pair of pants and then a shirt, and as I was putting on the shirt the designer (I had one of his cronies handing me clothes) comes over and looks at the pants, and says "Soo close. Nearly perfect, but your too skinny. Almost had it" pats me on the back, and walks away looking kinda upset. I though that was hilarious.

The agency thought it was funny that I was too skinny for the job.

So the other guys in the line with me were from Canada as well, one of which was from my home agency (NAM) who I had talked to previously. Always nice to see a familiar face.

Went to a bike shop to look into buying a bike. Apparently if you are wearing slim fit jeans people think you are retarded. The guy first of all though that riding fixed on the street is pointless (fair enough) so I asked about single speeds, and he points out this one bike at the back of the store, and he makes a comment about gears are better (fair enough), so not wanting to deal with gears (or needing them in the flat as day old pop city) I asked him about an old from he has sitting around that I could build up, to which he responds "no they all have vertical or kinda slopy (I'm guessing he meant horizontal) dropouts, to which I pointed out the one single speed he had in the store, which has vertical dropouts. This conversation went on for a while, him telling me what I was looking for is wrong, and then me telling him that it could be done. Even pointing out a bike that IS BUILT to be put together as a single speed (it was rocking internal gears) he said it wouldn't work. So I finally just left, no point talking to someone who isn't listening.

No casting for tomorrow. Instead I have a photo editorial with Vogue Sports (sounds kind of oxymoron like to me), first job, should be fun. Hopefully I get some clothes out of it. Apparently it is for Converse shoes... great... more shoes that will destroy my feet... just what I always wanted...


I need a bike.


Random funny fact:
While looking up a spelling i came across this discription of an eating disorder

Defencive vomiting is a symptom of anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa in which a person who has drastically over-eaten (generally in reaction to previous extreme dieting) vomits as a reaction to an excess of food which the body is not prepared to handle.

Defencive vomiting can also refer to a tactic used by some animals. In the presence of a threat, they vomit towards the threat, thus possibly distracting a predator and perhaps obscuring their scent."


How many people can say they have an eating disorder that also helps protect them from predators? (FYI I don't have an eating disorder, I was looking for a spelling, and after some random clicking I got to this page on Wikipedia and laughed)
26/05/08 13:56


So I have found a bike shop, and I'm headed there after my only casting today.

Apparently Italians make amazing food, even there hamburgers are better. Even there Mc Donalds is better... Like the food looks like the pictures

Sunday, May 25, 2008

25/05/08 21:21


Yea so again did not do much at all. I was planning on going to the gym (yea I know its funny, but I was bored and the agency gave me a free pass) but when I got there I found out that it closed at 14:00, I got there at 16:00.

So I didn't waste half way around the city, I went to buy some food for dinner. The store happened to have nothing I wanted except for this awesome can of coke. All the cans here are different, like the average can of coke is the same shape as a redbull can (but still 330ml), well this one is 500ml. Thought it was cool so I bought one (0.45Euros. About 1.7 dollars per euro). Heres a picture.



I figured it might be a good idea to post what my "apartment" looks like. So here it is Starting with a shot from the corner near the window right across the room, my bed is the closes one with the laptop on it.



































Here is a picture from the far side of the room showing my bed, table and the of window.


I'll take pictures of my kitchen and out the window tomorrow when i have better light, my camera is also my phone, hence the crappy pictures (I love having a valid excuse).

Maxime (the friend from down the hall) just came in, then wondered why my room is cool, I told him AC, he then looks half way up the wall to the vent, hops on my room mates bed, and started jumping up to see if he can feel the air... and broke the bed... Hahahaha

So thats my "apartment" now for the shocking part. I am spending about 800 Euros a month on it. Thats like $1360, so to make a profit this summer, I have to make $2720 (20% to NAM (Mother agency) 30% to Elite (Milan agency) then the $1360 in rent, then I start making money). So all I need to do is land 2 or 3 fashion shows.

Now I'm off to watch another movie. I have more to say, but that will wait till after this movie.

My Internet is crappy, so if it looks like I have logged off half way through a conversation with you it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with my Internet... maybe that is the reason, you never know...

Saturday, May 24, 2008

24/05/89 23:45


Nothing happened today, just kinda slept all day.

I woke up half way through the day to find my room mate and a friend watching porn together on my computer... No joke...

Yup thats about it.

I'm off to watch Bourne Ultimatum

Apparently one of my kittens back home is still missing (she disappeared two days before I left)
24/20/08 05:48


It is way too early to be up but then its way too hot to be asleep. I have so many fucking bug bites its unbelievable, and itchy, uuuuggggggggghhhhhhhh.


So we went downtown last night, after finishing 1/2 a bottle of vodka and 2 beers each. Kinda cool getting to see the night life of Milano. So apparently drugs are big here, not drugs like marijuana (i like how that word looks...), but drugs such as crack. Walking around down town at 2 in the morning, we saw more people doing crack then any other drug. It was kinda hectic, due to the fact it was really busy and one of the guys I was with was REALLY drunk and trying to pick up every girl he saw, even if they were with guys...

After a while we got to this really busy place outside a couple bars and just chilled for a bit, when this little Indian guy came along selling roses. So the two guys I'm with decide to try and buy his whole bunch of roses for 10 euros, he wanted to sell them all for 30 euros. Some how they managed to barter this guy down to 10 euros and a cup of beer. So they gave him the cup of beer, and then told him they had no money, so he gave Maxime (Belgian guy) a rose and then left. All the while I'm laughing my ass off at this whole encounter.

Then the Walk home. The public transit stops running at 2am here, and being that we were on our way home at 3am we had to walk. This town is surprisingly small, but you go from a good neighbourhood to a bad one really fast (like across a street). By the time we were walking home I had sobered up to the point while my roommate and Maxime (forgotten roommates name right now) were trying to decide which way to go, I had found out which way is north, and was busy walking along a slackline (made out of a chain between two pillars). Eventually I start herding the to drunks home, along the way one of them knocked over 2 bus stops (who the fuck puts up bus stop sign posts, with out putting them in the ground?) and telling a hooker to go fuck herself. Yup, thats right, while walking through the bad part of town (well, the place where they were smoking crack and where lots of hookers were milling about) one of these retarded guys decides to yell shit at the one english speaking hooker in the city.

Anyhooo I just found the AC controls and am going to go back to sleep now.



Sore throat since I got here... really starting to piss me off.

Friday, May 23, 2008

23/05/08 20:53


Only one casting today (apparently fridays are slow days). Was lame, just kinda showed up, did the catwalk walk, then left. Since the casting was at 14:00-17:00 I got to sleep in. I had to put the "do no disturb" thing on the door so the cleaners wouldn't come in and wake me up, not sure thats what its for.

Today I saw some true parking skills. This work van was blocked in by a smart car, and a mini. So to get his van out, one guy got out and started rocking the mini, when he got a good speed up, the guy driving pulled the van out of the gap, the gap was only big enough when the car was at the end part of the rocking motion. I now had some hope for the skills of the drivers in Italy, then I saw a guy parallel parking, and to judge the space he had, he would just hit the car behind or in front... So that little bit of hope I did have, was smashed like the bumper of the car behind.

Climbing tape is the ultimate tape. Duct tape is now number 2 on the lists of "Ultimate Tape". Works for both fixing bags, and covering blisters on heels. Duct tape doesn't work for covering blisters (trust me, don't try it).

Went into the agency today, asked them of any agency parties that were going on tonight, and they said there we not any, but going to clubs was dangerous... So the story is that models get singled out in clubs, and then either robbed (who would be stupid enough to bring there passport to a club?) or the get beaten up (they hit you in the face so you can't make money). Sounds fun. So you 'have to' wait till the agency/designers have parties.

So I'm bored, tomorrow I'm going to find a park to slack line in (gotta keep sunday night slackers going).


New model from the same agency moved in next door, he is also from Toronto, so we invited him over (felt bad just leaving him by himself). It was a bad mistake inviting him over... hes really weird... and now hes eating my food.

Thursday, May 22, 2008

22/05/08 14:39

Finished my castings today, only two. One was for a showroom, so rich people come in and want to see clothes on real people, so you get paid to try on clothes for other people.... yes very strange. I was one of 3 guys in this room of about 20 people. Each guy took maybe 10 seconds in the room with the designers, and each chick took about 5 min. When I eventually got in there were 2 male designers and one female, the men looked at my book and the woman shook her head. My guess is i didn't make it.

Second one was odd, it was an open casting for a magazine cover, when we got in there was no line up (strange) and then all I did was hand my book across the table to the woman (I guess editor?) who flicked through it, and said "ok, thanks, have a nice day". I'm not too fussed about this though because I wouldn't have gotten paid for it.



Ok. So eating. Models have a really bad rep for eating disorders. I just want to make one thing clear, there is NO time to eat. you get up in the morning in your residence and have to leave to do a casting, right away. The residence has nowhere to make food. In my room there is a stove, mini fridge, and sink. Heres the problem, I have no cutlery, plates, bowls, or pots and pans. Even if you have all of the above, the counter space is about the size of 3 loaves of bread. So breakfast is hard to make at home, and expensive to eat out. How hard can lunch be, right? Well you cant eat at the castings, and there is very little time to stop and buy it, because your castings tend to be very close to each other time wise, but really far distance wise. If you make your lunch then your set, but due to the problems with breakfast, lunch is less likely. Finally dinner, once you get home you are so tired making food is the last thing on your mind. On my way home I have just grabbed fruit and vegetables and eaten them while traveling. Eating out isn't too bad if you are feeling up to it, but finding a place near where you live, that is cheap is hard. In Toronto, I hate missing meals, hell if I go to lunch at 3pm I feel dead. While I have been here I have eaten dinner once, and eaten lunch twice, and no breakfast. Tonight I am going to make lunch and a snack for tomorrow, and I'm going to run across the street to get dinner (pizzeria). The only reason I'm going to make food tonight, is because my casting finished at 2pm so I have lots of time.
Then there is this weird fear of food. No one talks about it, no one mentions there hungry, and when you start eating a snack people look at you like you just punched a baby in the head (especially when your standing in a casting line up, inside a store, where the cheapest thing sells for a couple hundred euros).

The socializing is weird. The fact that very few people realize that if you get the job or not, it has nothing to do with you as a person, it has to do with what the designer is looking for. So getting the job is not like you know the material better then the person behind you, its more like the shape of your shoulders will fill out the shirt better then the guy behind you. This doesn't seem to be common knowledge though, so by people not getting this, and thinking everyone is there rival, socializing is really hard. It seems the best way to meet people is to; a) do it at the agency, or in your house, or b) Just be really open and talk to everyone around in the castings (doesn't work great because of the language barriers), c) once you have a job, apparently everyone warms up and then you make friends...





ps: converse shoes suck, I have blisters the size of small villages on both heels.

Wednesday, May 21, 2008

21/05/08 18:20


Today was my first actual day of modeling. I went to two casting's (like an audition). First was intense, there were about 50-75 other models (both male and female) and it was less of a line, more of a mob. So I waited in line for about 70 min. Luckily the guy next to me spoke English, so we talked about all sorts of stuff, but mainly how bullshit it was to stand in line for so long to have them go "yea we really like you" then you never get the job. So while we are bitching and complaining i eventually make it to The Guy who was doing all the stuff (stereotypical gay designer, down to the pink tight fitting V neck shirt and chest hair sticking out the top), he takes my book (portfolio) turns to the guy next to him and says something in Italian, hands me the book, pauses a second (felt like an hour) and then finally says "OK thats enough, sit down here and we're gonna take some shots of you" (meaning i made the shortlist for a campaign). That was an open casting, meaning anyone could go to it. As i walked out, I had to walk through the mass of people, I bumped some chick and she flipped out, i laughed and left.

The second was weird, I show up to what looks like a high end apartment building, have to get buzzed into the building. I Walk up these huge marble stairs, through a 2" metal door into the fanciest shop i have ever seen. Clothes along the racks on the walls, and then several "work stations" (for lack of a better word) ground to celling mirrors (all different angles) and lots of measuring/sewing machines for custom fitting. Eventually I make my way over to the casting director who then asked me to put on a shirt, took 2 pictures, and then that was it. This was not an open casting call so there were only a select few who went, meaning no lineups.

Then I got voulentold to go for a hair cut, at one of the fancier places in town, and because I'm a model i got it for really cheap (well 25 euros, instead of 50).


I have gotten bored of the nasty subway system (they look like bus-streetcars, but run underground) so I walked home (across the city). Apparently the whole city sprawls out from a central point, one of the central points being this Grey blob on my map, so I went to check it out. Here was the picture I got.

Yup, thats right, the Grey blob on the map (where my finger is) is actually a Grey blob in real life. Well no, I lied, its not just a Grey blob, it is actually a huge building site full of crushed concrete bricks, and stuff (so in reality, it is just a big Grey blob).



Parking here seems to be less skillful compared to Toronto. Here is a picture of some cars on the sidewalk, grass area, and then one on the road.


See the sign in the top right corner? Heres a closeup on it. I don't speak Italian, but I'm sure the little picture of a car getting towed, means something.


Here again, cant find a legal place to park? Just block other people in! This guy is not being courteous, he didn't put his hazard lights on.


I though this was funny, and I hope the sign reads "Oops, My bad"


I just though this was a cool building, note the guy on the scooter sitting halfway through the intersection on a red.




[Edit] fixed the pictures
20/05/08 17:57


Heres the deal, It costs 1Euro a hour to use internet, so updates will be several posts at a time (i will try and date them)

I'm sitting in my 1/2 bedroom apartment, waiting for my roommate. I want to meet him soon so he doesn't come in at night and wake me up. the flight was worse then shit, i had 2 (yes 2) screaming kids, screaming all flight so sleep was impossible. The food was shite (when they say "would you like meat or fish" they actually mean "no meat, fish") and the movies were lame (one was just bad, the other was jumper and the languages it came in were "Italian" and "italian")
So after the 10ish hours of shit on a plane it took like 40min for my bags to come through.

now the fun part, i grab my bag and as I'm leaving (getting ready to take the train to the agency) i see a guy running at me holding a sign with my name on it... thats right i had my own driver (saving me a 70 euro cab, or a 20 euro train then a 20 euro cab). You think soccer moms are bad drivers, or maybe Asian people are bad, you haven't seen Italians. Speed limit says 110km/h, lets do 150km/h. Motorbike in the lane with you, aw well squeeze by him, need to change lanes and the gap is just big enough for your car (and your doing 150) just merge. I think the city counsel needs a better treasurer, because it seems like the ran out of paint for the lines on the road. Downtown Milan, there is one rule "go for the gap" for example, there is 4 cars lined up at a set of lights (widenough for maby 3) just squeeze in there and be the 5th. light just turn red? ah well if you drive fastenough maybe it will go green for you. motorbike driving on the wrong side of the road because theres no room on the right side? join him over there. and finnaly, no room to park next to the curb (and by next to the curb i mean through intersections, on the left and right side of the road, on the sidewalk side of the curb) just park next to the guy who is next to the curb and put on your hazard lights, double parking seems to be an ok thing to do.

and because of all this "driving" there are parts of cars EVERYWHERE.

this is the one place I'm kinda nervous to ride my bike.

now off to bed because I haven't slept since around 10:00am Monday, it is currently 12:00pm Tuesday. Only after a nice dinner of yellow pepper, fresh bread, ketchup, and a meat (i have yet to identify its all in Italian. actually the only part of my meal that i can identify is the ketchup, and thats because it is in English... the pepper is, well, a pepper)

Monday, May 19, 2008

Thought of the moment: Fuck, I need new boxers.


It just hit me that I fly out tomorrow to a country halfway around the world, where they speak a different language, where I know nobody, to do a job that I know little about, and the part I'm most worried about is the lack of new boxers.


Best advice yet "If you are in Italy, and you are eating food that is bad, leave, there is better food around the corner" - Will

Monday, May 12, 2008

How it started

So...

This is how my crazy story starts.

May 29th 1989 I was born, then 4 weeks ago I got discovered (you have no idea how not me this is, both the blog and the modeling)

The day started with the usual get up go to school, get off school head to the coop (place I work, I think it has another name, but coop (pronounced coup or coop interchangeably)) to fix a friends bike up a bit then to go rock climbing with Niamh. Then back to the coop to pick up Ben and then for food. Some how it was decided that we would go for vegetarian food (which doesn't constitute a meal due to the lack of meat).


Walking back from the "meal" (no meat = not a meal) complaining about the lack of meat, this random chick comes running up behind us, stops us all the while chewing, and says "Can I talk to you?", then looking at my friends "Not you, you can keep walking". This is where I got confused, the only reason I could fathom someone would chase me down in the street is because i might have pissed them off riding my bike, but that wasn't the case because I had longboarded everywhere that day... Anyway... She looks at me and says "Have you ever tried modeling?", laughing I respond "what? no". She asks me if I would be interested, and I don't know. A couple seconds later out comes this flamboyant guy who's half talking on the phone, half talking to me... I was kind of in shock so I only really remember things like "fabulous" and "amazing" (I think he said that) then "Have you given him a card?"... I end up in walking away kinda confused with a business card for NAM models, thinking there is some big particle joke going on.

Laughing about it on are way back to the coop we are all laughing about it and then ben is quiet for a second and says "I feel ugly now"... To which we respond with laughter.

The next morning I called them and went in, a couple photos were taken, a scout was phoned, he came over from where ever he was, took some more pictures. I left to go to work, got home and found out they had called and Gucci wanted me in Milan for the summer, and they didn't want any other companies to see my face.


So yea, thats the start of hopefully an awesome adventure.


Plane ticked is booked for this coming Monday to Milan... The amount I have been told I could make is, more then the coop...

Hopefully my writing will get better.

Random fact of the day: The typical male model's IQ is somewhere between a household dog and a tree (ever green, loosing leaves would be too confusing for them)